Interview No. 2

Name: Scotty
Age: 27
Graduating Class: Dropped Out

Until Debt Due Us Part (UDDUP): How much do you currently owe?
Scotty: I owe $8,000

UDDUP: What are your monthly payments like?
I actually only pay $100 a month.

UDDUP: Have you ever defaulted on your payments?
No.

UDDUP: Have you ever deferred your payments?
No.

UDDUP: What was your balance when you graduated college?
I never graduated college.

UDDUP: You never graduated, do you want to talk about that a little bit more?
Yeah, I got accepted to a bunch of schools, but before I got into my freshman year of college…I lost a lot of my scholarship money. Well, I lost all of my scholarships. So I ended up going to an in-state school and I flunked out my freshman year. And when I came back to Chicago, I went to community college at Harold Washington and I got through all of my prerequisites there. Then, I transferred over to Robert Morris and I did one year there and by the end — I realized I didn’t want to tackle on more debt and I could not register for my classes with an outstanding balance with the school; so I either had to take out loans to cover my classes or I just couldn’t go back. So, I just decided not to go back. 

UDDUP: So if you had gone back to school, how much debt would you have probably accumulated?
If I had gone back and finished up, I probably would be around $32,000 in debt.

UDDUP: When you dropped out — how much debt did you owe? Was it the $8k?
When I dropped out I was at zero. My pops helped me out my freshman year of school and he told me that he only had enough money for the one year of school. And in-state tuition with room and board (I went to SIUE*) was around $15,000 a year — which was the cheapest college in America at the time.

*Southern Illinois University Edwardsville

UDDUP: What was the tuition?
It was around $8,000 for in-state. Yeah, it was super cheap.

UDDUP: Did you commute? Or Did you live there?
No, I lived there. Edwardsville is about 5 hours away from Chicago.

UDDUP: So how many years of school did you actually complete? Was it just one? I am trying to understand where that $8k came from…
So I did one year at SIUE that my dad helped me get through, but I flunked out. So I came back to Chicago and I finished all my prerequisites at Harold Washington — which took about two years. Then I transferred my credits to Robert Morris which brought me to my third year of school — well technically my fourth year, if you count my first year at SIUE. I did my whole third year at Robert Morris and I was paying for school as I was going through it. It was about $16,000 for the year just for tuition. I paid half of that for one semester and I couldn’t pay the rest, so I took out the loan for the other half.

UDDUP: So you paid out of pocket…
Yeah, I paid out of pocket. I was a full-time student and I was a full-time employee.

UDDUP: And by the time you left Robert Morris, you were $8k in debt?
When I left Robert Morris, I was $10,000 in debt, right now I have about $8,000 left to pay.

UDDUP: And by the time you realized how much this was going to cost you…you just decided to drop-out?
Yeah, and there were other factors to dropping out of school too.

UDDUP: Do you care to elaborate on those other factors?
Yeah, I was pursuing a degree in technology at the time and what I was learning was very basic and rudimentary things in the world of computer science — and at the time I was already working in technology at UIC. And I knew that graduating I would have entry level skills to get me the job that I was already doing. So with that being said, I was stuck in this moment of “Do I want to pursue a degree in a field that I am already working in? ”  or “ Would I rather get more job experience? ” 

So I chose the later route because I thought that would help me out more in the long run. I thought getting a degree wouldn’t have furthered my career at this point and I would have a degree for the job I already have and accumulate more debt.

UDDUP: So you were working in technology. What were you doing?
At the time I was working in Help Desk at UIC. Then halfway through my first year at Harold Washington, I got a new job - at this actuary firm - as Specialist Support.

UDDUP: Since you don’t have your degree, did you just obtain a bunch of certifications?
Actually, I only have one certification. My COMPTIA  A+ certification which helped me get my foot in the door to tech. And in the world of tech, certifications are helpful but, having actual skill is probably the most helpful thing you can attain. So, getting those certifications can help you get your foot in the door but, it’s not the end all be all. A lot of these jobs that I worked for, they didn’t really care about my educational background — they just wanted to know if I could perform the job. So I went into these job interviews where I would be given a coding challenge or a difficult task;  so they could see how I work through a problem. 

UDDUP: What is your current title?
I am a Cloud Computing Engineer.

UDDUP: Is this a career path you would have pursued after you graduated college?
To be honest, I think that dropping out of college helped me view my career with better perspective — in terms of what I wanted to do. Because when I was a freshman at SIUE, I was an Electrical Engineering major and that’s what I thought I wanted to do. Coming back to Chicago gave me a chance to think about where I wanted to align my future and my career; and I saw the tech industry booming, so that’s when I started to change my career. Even through working, I have made changes on where I thought I would be. If we did this interview two or three years ago — I probably would have thought I wanted to be a Network Engineer, which is completely different from what I am working on right now.

UDDUP: It sounds like you have all this perspective now, but when you dropped out — how did you feel? Did you really feel this confident in your decision?
No. When I got kicked-out that was pretty bad. I didn’t know what to do. I thought I was just going to have to go to community college and save some money, work a job, but I was really unsure about what I wanted to do. When I dropped out the second time, I was mostly feeling positive that everything would be okay. 

I think about returning to school, nowadays, but it wouldn’t be just to finish my undergrad — it would really be to get a master’s in business — which is completely outside of what I am working in now. And it isn’t for a noble cause of like, “ I just want to get a master’s. ” It’s because I think when I get to a truly high paying job - being a leader, being a CIO, or being a Director, or SVP — that’s when a master’s degree really comes in handy, that’s when school really has its benefits — when it comes to the end game of your career. And right now, I feel like I am in this proverbial bubble where I am stuck and I can’t climb higher up the corporate ladder because I don’t have a degree or a master’s. I know I will be fine where I am but, sometimes I worry that it limits my opportunities. 

UDDUP: I want to go back to the topic of the prospect of getting your master’s, but I first I want to go back to when you got kicked out. Do you want to share a bit more on why you think that happened?
This is going to sound kind of pertinacious but, I thought I was going to go to Purdue. I had a big scholarship to Purdue and I lost it. And I went into my freshman year of college at a place I didn’t really want to go to, that didn’t align with what I wanted to be. I didn’t really connect with anyone. I was a big city kid going to school in a VERY small town, and the campus was landlocked. If you didn’t have a car you were stuck on campus. And it sucked. I didn’t really like anyone and I just had a bad time and I wasn’t really challenged in my courses; and because I wasn’t really challenged, I didn’t really go to class. I was really bored. School was okay, but it was just boring. Which sounds kind of like, “ Oh if it was so was easy you should have done well…” But if you don’t practice, or do your homework, when that test comes you’re going to bomb of course. But when you’re in class and you sit there and the teacher is going over this material it’s like, “ Give me something that’s actually challenging, that’ s going to get my wheels turning.” And that wasn’t really happening. It made me bored. 

UDDUP: I am going to back track a bit more. Where did you have scholarships to?
I had scholarships to University of Pittsburg, Carnegie Mellon, and Purdue.

UDDUP: Woah, what happened?
That’s a different story. That’s not an education story. That’s a story about being a kid in Chicago.

UDDUP: So let’s go back to getting your master’s. Do you have any apprehension pursing it knowing what it cost to go to school?
No. Right now in this stage of my game, I will go back to school and I will probably be able to get through it debt free BUT, I will have to go through it at a much slower pace. A lot of these companies they want to retain their employees — so they will pay for your school. At my current job, I can get about $9,000 a year that I can use toward school. So, I could go back and take 2 or 3 classes a year and I can just pay for school, but use [my job] as my way to do it. And I would have to pay off the rest of my student debt first, but I am not too worried about it. 

UDDUP: You made a smart move. We could be sitting down and talking about how you have $32K in debt right now. 
Yeah, I know a lot of people. I had a mentor in high school that came out of school $120,000 in debt. I didn’t want to be in debt like that. I mean now, I am in debt like that, but that’s a different. I have a mortgage. 

UDDUP: Were you the first in your family to go to college?
No. Both my parents have master’s degrees. My sister has a bachelor’s. 

UDDUP: Did they all attend four-year universities?
My mother went to a four year university and graduated. Later, she went back to school and her job paid for her master’s. My dad dropped out of college and finished pretty “late” in the game. He finished his bachelor’s in his 30’s. He went back for his master’s in his 40’s  and his job helped pay for both.

UDDUP: Do you think that because your parents had experience going to college, that they had a better understanding about how to pay for it?
I think it was a bit of different time. I think what my parents were more focused on was the stability. So my mother had a degree in nursing, she went to school for nursing and she had a masters in nursing — and nursing for her was a steady job. My dad got his degree and later on got his master’s so he could get promoted in the police department. He’s been working that one steady job for almost 30 years. My parent’s knew it could be a tool that they could leverage to enhance their careers, I never thought they took it as something that they had to fall back on. They used it as a tool to get them where they are.

UDDUP: You watch the news, you hear these stories about people with student debt. You have debt, maybe not as much as some, but I think this question still applies to you. Do you think this issue will factor how you vote in the 2020 election?
It depends, I think we will end up seeing a lot of people default on these loans. It may end up being something similar to the housing crisis in 2008 but, I am not sure to what degree. You have all these kids coming out of college with all this debt. In reality — it probably won’t all get paid. I doubt that debt forgiveness will be a thing. I think on paper it sounds it sounds nice but, at the end of the day college is an institution and they trying to make money. And they are trying to be profitable for themselves. I think you are going to see a lot of resistance there. So I think anything regarding the student debt crisis won’t persuade me, because I think that it is a pretty messed up situation to begin with.

UDDUP: Any advice for people who currently have student debt or are considering taking on student debt?
Financial planning isn’t something that is taught before you enter college. So before making the decision to go to college, remember that college isn’t for everybody and that is NOT a bad thing. Consider trades and other alternative skillsets before thinking about college. Don’t go if you are not going there for yourself.

Interview No. 1

Name: Midnight*
Age: 27
Graduating Class: 2015
*For interviewees who request to remain anonymous, names are undisclosed, alias are used and the names of universities and colleges are removed.

Until Debt Due Us Part (UDDUP): How much do you currently owe?
Midnight: $25,000

UDDUP: Was $25,000 the amount when you graduated?
Yeah pretty much, I think it was closer to $24,000 but after fees and interest.

UDDUP: What are your monthly payments like?
That’s a good question. I haven’t paid them in awhile. They’ve ranged over time sometimes they were down to $150 and upwards of $250. 

UDDUP: Have you ever defaulted?
Yes.

UDDUP: How soon after the money was owed did you default?
Maybe a year and half, two years. [after graduating].

UDDUP: Could you not pay them? or Did you just not want to?
It’s kind of a combination of both. At the time the payments were $250 a month, and at $250 a month that would have was a big chunk. I have to pay rent, I have to eat.

UDDUP: I know you said you haven’t paid in awhile, are your loans in deferment?
I am on a normal payment plan, I just haven’t paid in awhile.

UDDUP: How much have you paid?
I think I have paid $2,500 [since graduating].

UDDUP: What level of education did you obtain? 
I just got my bachelor’s degree, which is like a  high school diploma at this point. I don’t want to complain because I am glad I got it. Thank the lord. 

UDDUP: What did you get your degree in?
Business Administration. However, they don’t really teach you how to manage your finances. I can tell you that much.

UDDUP: What are you doing now? are you doing anything related to your major?
Right now, no. Since I have been back from traveling, I don’t have a job. Right now, I am job searching. Before I left, I had a job that was related to major.

UDDUP: What were you doing?
I worked with city government in economic development. We helped small business and property owners with grants.

UDDUP: So when you working with city government, would you consider that your desired profession?
No. I wanted to go into real estate because I was a real estate major, but pretty much all the business school students get business administration degrees, no matter what your ‘major’ is. So, I wanted go into real estate, and while it was closer fit, I wasn’t really in real estate at that job. So no, I wouldn’t say that was my ideal job coming out.

UDDUP: So when you came out of college, do you think you picked that job due to the financial circumstances you found yourself in after graduating?
No I wouldn’t say that. It was a good job for me, it just wasn’t the job I had in mind. But it was a good job for me. It paid well. Put me on the right career path. I was fine with it.

UDDUP: How do you think this happened? How do you think you obtained all this debt?
*laughs* Interesting question. I don’t know, I feel like the same way everyone else obtains them. You know there is gap between what you can afford and how much school costs. You know, we couldn't afford much of anything being low income, we didn’t have any money to pay for college. [University] helped with grant money and I had other scholarships, but there was still a gap after all that and the only way to really fill it was with loans. You just sign, you don’t really think about it when you’re 17 years old. You sign and say “sure, I will just pay it back.” 

UDDUP: And the loans they are all under your name?
Yes. 

UDDUP: Are they private?
No, they are federal loans from the government.

UDDUP: How much in grants and scholarships did you receive?
About $25,000 in grants and scholarships each year. But again, I never had to really think about it, that’s how they get you too. It never crossed my mind how much I was actually getting. I just knew school would get paid for and I would get a refund check every semester. I would just register when it was time register. I didn’t ask any questions. 

UDDUP: Are you the first in your family to go to college?
Yes. 

UDDUP: So you didn’t really have anyone to walk you through this process?
No, definitely not. Well, not in my family. I had advisors and I was in this program in high school that helps you get into college and find ways to pay for college.

UDDUP: Do you feel like if you didn’t have the resources you’d have more debt? or have more issues navigating that landscape? It just sounds like at age 17 you don’t really know what you are getting yourself into.
Well if it wasn’t for this particular program, I probably would not have attended [University]. I probably would have attended [State School] or somewhere else. Because if I didn’t have the grants, I wouldn’t have been able to attend [University]. I probably would have went to [State School].

UDDUP: Do you think you had a choice in what University you attended? or maybe in your case, do you think you would have gone somewhere else if you didn’t receive the grants and scholarships? You kind of already touched on this but I’d like to go a bit deeper.
Yeah, I mean I know [University] is expensive. We didn’t have any money. If I didn’t receive all of the grants and scholarships, I would have had to go somewhere else. I think then I would have probably looked at how much the loans were and thought “that’s too much” and went to [State School].

But let me say this, I think in the grand scheme of things I think I am very fortunate 1.) to have a [University] degree and 2.) I mean $25,000 yes is a lot - but I know people have $100,000 student loans. People pay $25,000 for a car. I think a [University] degrees is worth a car. I mean I think it is difficult to pay it back. I’d say as much as it has kind of hindered me and put me in a tough situation - I wouldn’t say it’s an undoable task at least for my situation.

I mean it’s a lot. I know that in the grand scheme of paying it all back - I am going to pay over $25,000 with interest and all that. But when I think about per month, if I was on the right track and didn’t miss any payments. $250 a month, a half way decent job, you can swing $250 a month if you play it smart. I just didn’t play it smart.

UDDUP: You said the loans have hindered you. Do you want do discuss more on how that this has hindered you?
Well, the biggest thing is that my loans went into default and that affects your credit of course. I am sure that is somewhere on my credit report. I participated in this program for credit counseling where if you make a certain number of payments on time, it will take you out of default and get you back on track - so I did that. But I mean, like I said, I was having trouble paying $250 a month, so you know when you have a very limited amount of income - $250 is big chunk and I wasn’t out here ballin’. So that determined where I could and couldn’t live. I couldn’t afford a car. Not that I wanted one, but if I did — I couldn’t afford it. You can’t really save because you are spending all your money on paying bills, rent, food, and by the time that’s all said any done you don’t really have anything saved. You can’t be putting away for the future, make investments - so it’s held me back in that aspect. 

UDDUP: Do you regret anything?
I wish I was smarter about paying back the loan. I could have made some smarter decisions. I didn’t need to spend $1,000 on rent. I could have lived somewhere cheaper. I don’t have to eat out all the time. I could have cut back. I didn’t HAVE to be in the situation I am in, but it’s the life I chose. I also didn’t have to go on this trip. The whole time I went on my trip, I wasn’t paying anything. Who know’s what’s going on with the loan now.

UDDUP: Sounds like you were trying to live your life.
Right, but part of living my life is paying back the loan. I agreed to do it. I CAN say I didn’t know what I was getting into at 17 and college is too much. All that is true, but I knew all that coming out of college. I knew what I had to do to get this loan paid back. I just decided not to do it - so that’s on me. I regret not being smart about it.

UDDUP: Do you think this issue will impact your vote in the upcoming 2020 election?
No, definitely not. The 2020 election will be Trump versus whomever the democratic nominee is. I am voting democrat no matter who it is. So it wouldn’t affect me in that way, but it will affect who I vote for in the primaries.

UDDUP: What advice would you give to people who are currently facing student debt or thinking about taking on student debt?
Okay, I will answer this in two parts. First, I will address the people with current student debt. 

I know it’s a tough situation depending on how much you have. You may not have the best job out there. You have to pay money sufficiently to cover all of your living expenses, plus the student debt. I know it’s hard depending on the situation and at the same time, I say we have to — for whatever reasons we got ourselves into these situations — there could have been other outside factors that influenced those decisions but, we are in it — so we have to be responsible about it. We can complain all we want, but at the end of the day, it has to be paid back unless someone comes in and cancels all the the student debt — which would be lovely but, until such a time we have to do what is smart and do what is in our best interest. Right now, that’s getting this debt paid back. I know it will delay you buying a car, or buying a home, or saving for retirement but, I think in the long run it will be smart to get this done and out of the way. 

At the same time, we have to be pushing our elected officials to help us out. We didn’t get into this situation by ourselves. There’s number of factors and influences that led us to believe this was the best decision to sign up for all of this debt. Not truly understanding what this meant for our future. Once we do [take on these loans], we get sent over to these loan servicers who don’t have our best interest at heart, who are just looking to get paid more and more. They slam you with all these fees and interest. You can’t even get on the phone to have a reasonable conversation with them. So we need to be pushing our elected officials to do something about it. It sucks, but we have to do what we have to do. We have to fight the system that got us here.

People who are looking at student debt…

I don’t know what to tell you. You may want to go and find yourself a trade, get an apprenticeship, go to [community college] for a few years; then switch up to [four year college or university], get those prerequisites out of the way to save yourself some money. The degree will stay wherever you graduate. You want to think about it hard, because it’s real out here. I mean I have $25,000 - it’s not the biggest amount. Like I said, I know people out here with $100,000. That’s real life. They are paying like $1,000 a month. Come on Jesus pour us some blessings because  we need them. $1,000 a month - I can’t even imagine that. The people who are doing that — I feel for you. 

People who are looking into taking on student debt. I don’t know. There are other avenues. A bachelor’s degree doesn’t really open that many new doors. With the advent of the internet, you can go out there and make your own little hustle. I don’t know, join the PeaceCorps to get your college paid for. You have to be creative with it, but don’t dive head in — maybe work for a year. Work a few years and save. If you have about $15,000 — I think if I had $15,000  after a year, then went to [university] then I would have only had $10,000 in loans. I could do that, anyone could do that with a half way decent job coming out of school — anybody can do that. Don’t feel like you need to be rushing into going college right away. Don’t feel that you have to sign for for all the loans that they are going to be throwing at you. Really think about it. 

There are other avenues to make money. There are other career paths. However, if you really want to go to college — get creative with how you finance it. Try to use loans as your last resort. Just because they say they will give it to you, doesn’t mean you should take them. 

UDDUP: I liked what you said at the end there - “just because they say they will give it you, doesn’t mean you should take it.”
Yeah, because they will gladly give it to you. They know they will get it back one way or another — with interest! They are going to make money off it. “Take as much as you want!” “Oh, you want some more, sure have some more!” Don’t let them get you.

UDDUP: If you didn’t have these loans - what would you be doing right now? If you graduated college debt free - what would you have done?
I would be saving up for something — saving for retirement. Whether that be contributing to retirement account or making investments. I don’t think it would change my day-to-day drastically. Would I live in a nicer place? Or buy a car? Or get out more? — I think I would just be saving money and investing it. Tell that to your senator. Instead of paying the government back I would be putting money in investments, helping the economy, purchasing more items — that helps the economy. 

UDDUP: Is there anything else you would like to add before we wrap up?
I’d like to expand on the economic implications of so much student loan debt. I won’t be the first to say this, a lot of people already understand this. People who are running for office understand this. This student debt — the whole idea behind it was to get more people into college so that there would be more productive members of society contributing more to the tax base, consuming more, buying more houses, cars etc. BUT the system has been so perverted over the last — however long it’s been — the very thing that the government invested in — young people who would become contributing members of society — are now being withheld by that very thing we were invested in for. 

These degrees are holding us back. These  student loans are holding us back. Now we can’t buy those houses, we can’t buy those cars, we can’t go out to eat more, we can’t do all this other stuff because we are paying $250, $500, $1,000 every month. That’s putting off that second car or making investments in the stock market, or buying homes. It’s hindering the economy. These conservatives are saying that, “you knew what you were doing,” “pull yourself up by your bootstraps,” “you signed up for it” —you don’t know the whole story. We know we signed up for it, but it’s hurting all of us collectively because we aren’t contributing all that we can to society, to the tax base, to local business. It would be in our best interest to just cancel it out. Think about what we could all do with an extra $250 or an extra $1,000 a month….that’s a home right there!

UDDUP: In some cases you may not qualify for a business loan…
Yeah, you can’t get loans for businesses, for cars, for homes because when they look at your balance sheet they are going to see this big liability with student loans on it. So if you are $50,000 in the hole—some bank isn’t going to look at you and say, “Okay, yeah you are qualified.” They are going to say, “No, you have all this debt, we aren’t going to give you another loan. That doesn’t make sense for us.” It’s not just me and you that this is hindering, you are hindering banks ability to provide loans. Not that I am going to bat for the banks, but there are ripple effects as a result of me having student debt. There are other things that are impacted by it. People need to understand that. There is an opportunity cost.

UDDUP: Anything else you would like to add?
Make sure you get out and vote everybody.

I would also add…

There are a lot of people that I know that didn’t go to college. The people who left high school and went a different route to get a job. Now, they own homes, they are debt free—aside from the mortgage—but they are debt free, they make more money than me when I was working with my college degree. Now, I can see why some people are reconsidering the need to go to college and trying something new. Because now it’s been five years and they are leading nice middle class lives. Meanwhile, I am here struggling. Not saving, can’t afford a house, still renting. These people are out here living nice little lives without the college degree, without the burden of student debt. 

I think what you are doing is really important. There are a lot of different stories, situations and circumstances about how people got whatever amount of debt they have. Your story is different than mine. Like there’s no way my mom could pay for school or get a loan to pay for school. So it was get these grants and scholarships, get these loans or you just don’t go to school. There’s no way she could pay for it, so all the debt is in my name so she’s off the hook for anything. She couldn’t do it even if she wanted to. Even if she was willing to — she couldn’t. 

Welcome to the Interview Series

It’s finally time to begin the interview series. Sorry for the wait.

As mentioned at the launch of this project — this platform will feature interviews from individuals across the country who will share their personal experiences relating to student debt. All interviews are facilitated using a prompt to get the conversation started. Every story is unique and as the discussion moves along with each individual — you will find that these interviews evolve from questions, to engaging narratives and even conversations.

These individuals are voluntarily participating in this project, as they hold strong opinions and feelings about the student debt crisis in America. We ask that you respect these accounts and the people sharing them.

Thank you. Thank you for waiting. And please enjoy these stories.

Introduction

The evidence that America is experiencing a student debt crisis undeniable. In 2019, Forbes reported that about 44 million people collectively owe over $1.5 trillion in student loans — making it the second highest consumer debt category with mortgages sitting at number one. This makes education debt higher than credit card debt and auto loans.

While these statistics are unfortunately true, the rhetoric surrounding these types of statistics is lacking. Granted the piece referenced here is solely statistics, it still undermines the impact behind these numbers. While informative, it is unsettling because mortgages, credit card debt and auto loans are not truly comparable to student loans. Individuals with student debt cannot earn equity on their degree, sell their diploma or declare bankruptcy — so in some respects, student loans are in a category of their own.

The topic of student debt isn’t new. We hear about it frequently, especially with the upcoming 2020 Presidential Election, but we are only examining the issue on a high level. Many of the thought pieces surrounding student debt keep economic effects at the center (i.e. the ability to purchase homes, rooming with parents, too much avocado toast etc), but what does this all mean for people with student debt? We need to further the discussion surrounding this subject. We need to engage in a deeper conversation.

The goal of this platform is continue to share information on student loans, but also to share the personal narratives of the individuals behind the facts and the figures. Everything from the pitfalls to the success stories. The crisis on student debt is too personal to be this impersonal. The goal of this blog is to change that.

Welcome to Until Debt Due Us Part.